Melanie -- your tireless dedication to our industry is so greatly appreciated. I was on one of the early calls that we held to help us fight CA AB178. You were on the phone with great information and a level of encouragement we all needed. It was so clear that your agenda was to help!
I mentioned last night I have "high hopes and low expectations." Honestly, I've thought about this a lot throughout the day. I'm usually an optimist. And, reading these comments, plus hearing other people weigh-in, I've got to say that my high hopes are taking over!
Thank you, Scott, for your support of Affiliate Voice and helping to get the word out about our organization. I'm proud to be a board member representing the interests of the affiliates in the affiliate marketing industry. Other board members represent other aspects of the industry (networks, merchants, OPMs, and other interested parties).
Much agreed. In fact I think it can be a real boost to the industry to have two organizations fighting for rights as long as they aren't fighting for membership dollars. There are lots of issues out there and hopefully there can be some divide and conquer strategy that can be applied to make sure the industry is covered in all areas.
Us vs. Them? It's been Us vs. Them since the AV idea was first floated by Haiko last year when he heard about the PMA and decided it wouldn't be good enough (for reasons I won't get into here, but which everyone who knows the backstory understands).
I said at the time that there would be room for both. I was ridiculed and derided by the higher-ups and the fan club at ABW. I also said that multiple affiliate marketing forums could exist side-by-side and I got banned from ABW for trying to involve myself in multiple areas. I wasn't the only one.
I still believe that there is room for more than one professional organization. The PMA has been very focused on issues and not on petty back-and-forth so far. The next couple of months will show whether or not AV is capable of the same. Given my personal experience with Haiko and ABW, I'm not holding my breath... but I do wish them luck and hope that they can be do some good for the industry.
I have high hopes and low expectations.
My skepticism stems, mostly, from the belief that too many of us are conditioned to see this situation as a classic "zero-sum game." One winner. One loser. We'll think we should only pick one. Or, worse, neither.
I believe there are so many amazing, smart and well-intended people with great integrity in this industry. I hope that BOTH of these associations highlight, and represent, the good in our profession, and minimize the impact of those that don't wear the Affiliate or Performance Marketing labels well.
Well said, Scott. But, do you really believe that we have room for two organizations? I don't and I suspect from the tone of your post you'd prefer if there was only one, too.
First of all, as affiliate marketers, we're a very small industry to have two organizations representing us. I'm talking about active affiliates who are involved with the developments within the industry and care enough to participate in the solutions. How many are there? I'd guess less than 1000.
Secondly, as a small group we have very limited resources. And having two organizations theoretically halves these resources, making them much less effective.
Also, both organizations says their mission is to represent affiliate/performance marketing community as a "unified voice", which makes the dreaded us vs. them BS inevitable.
PMA has been courteous enough to link to ABW and not get directly involved in Haiko's baits regarding their organization. And Haiko, instead of starting a reactionary org to undermine PMAs efforts, should have at least waited on the sideline until they, actually, do something wrong to the industry.
Having said all that, I sincerely wish both organizations to be wildly successful in their endeavors and to accomplish the goals they have set out to.
Sami, yes, I really do believe it. My tone comes from my fear that the negativity that existed in the past between some of the players here will continue. I expect everybody to bury the hatchet and put all that behind them.
I think there are easily two groups of people/companies in our industry who for whatever reason would strongly prefer one organization over the other. If it takes two organizations to get them all motivated and involved, then so be it.
The members of the Boards of Directors must lead by example and find a way to move forward with their respective organizations without politics and bad-mouthing. If that doesn't happen, or resurfaces, my support goes away.
Daniel, how does your negative attitude help anything? What does it accomplish? This isn't about your personal hurt feelings towards ABW. Again, it's not helping anything. Your post does nothing more than inflame things, it doesn't go towards what's best.
Sami, first we're not a small industry. I'm not sure your experience with it but it's a huge industry.
"Secondly, as a small group we have very limited resources. And having two organizations theoretically halves these resources, making them much less effective."
The PMA isn't losing any resources since the price to get in $500, keeps most out. Most joining Affiliate Voice wouldn't pay such amount. There will be some who join both and that's great.
It's sad to see some of these negative posts. How about let's see how things turn out.
I agree with your comments Scott and the more people and organizations involved can only better the performance marketing industry. However, I remember being at Affiliate Summit and seeing two voices clashing over the PMA & NY Tax situation. I hope that both organizations can find common ground to work together and save duplication of efforts and reduce conflict. It will be important to have a unified voice for supporting the issues with government and media channels.
I'll disclaim as well: I'm a member of the FAB and I have joined the PMA.
I think there is room for 2 organizations. I think there is room for mroe than 2. This industry is very diverse with many different points of view and interests. Any consolidation of the voices is much needed for our industry. The fragmentation has not served us well in the past. For our indsutry to truly mature, there must be some degree of more formal unity amongst ourselves. Only then we can we begin to lookout for our own best interests and not rely on others outside of our industry to do so, as has happened in the past.
Personally, I was not happy about some of the mud slinging that has happened in the past. But that is really neither here nor there in the big picture. It in no way takes away from the potential benefit AV can bring to our industry.
When I became involved with the PMA, I expected there would be things I both agreed with and disagreed with connected with the PMA. That will probably be the case with AV. But that is the case with most organizations, whatever they may be. It's just a fact of life.
If there ends up being differences of opinion between the PMA & AV (or whatever other groups may form) over specific industry issues, that's not necessarily a bad thing either. People will at least be standing up for what they feel is best for this industry...being active instead of passive. But there will also be issues where there is common ground (such as the tax issue..no doubt there will be more in the future). When groups come together on the common issues, when they disagree on others, that is where the real power behind trade groups lie.
The more people who become involved in actively molding our industry, the better.
I wondered how long it would take before someone showed up to put me down for my "negativity". Not long at all.
I have no bad feelings about ABW. I have no feelings about ABW. It, and Haiko, are nothing to me. I posted what I did as an observation and a heads-up for people that deal with him. If you cross him, even if he wrongly perceives a slight, as he did with me, he'll make you pay.
This isn't "negativity", this is truth. I only hope that the heavy hand that he runs ABW with doesn't affect the work that AV will do, because Mel and Rhea have put way too much time and effort into fighting the tax issue to have Haiko's need for control to drag it down. Time will tell. I said that I wish them luck, and I do. I have tremendous respect for Mel and Rhea.
Daniel, they're nothing to you yet you continue to focus on them? You're using this just as a way to get back at Haiko, at least be honest. Get over it, look at the bigger picture because what you're doing isn't helping anything, it's not productive.
There are real issues that need to be dealt with. There is more than one person involved with AffiliateVoice, people like Mel and Rhea who you say respect. A lot of affiliates such as myself felt left out with the price points PMA have. With AV $35, more affiliates will get involved. That's a good thing.
Now if you want to continue to be negative and use this to get back at people, it will just reflect poorly on you.
my disclaimer: i am on the FAB of the PMA too.
i am delighted to see more than one organization that supports the affiliate marketing industry. and i will personally support any group that seeks to further the industry and promote it in a positive light.
whatever may have happened in the past is just that - the past. i'm looking forward to what each group can accomplish - separately and together. I hope others will give these groups (and any others that may emerge) the opportunity to execute on their respective missions.
i believe the intentions of both groups are very positive. yes, there will be overlap on some issues, but i expect as time goes on and each group ramps up there will be different strengths emerging. that's a great thing for the industry.
i have seen nothing but good will and a spirit of collaboration from all of those involved to resolve pressing issues that threaten the industry.the more people that are actively working to fight for our industry, the better for all.
Who's focusing on Haiko? Do you know who I am? This is the first thing I've said about him or ABW since last Fall, when I made one forum post about the situation. I made my comments here because people should know what they're getting themselves into when he's involved. That's my point, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time spelling it out for someone who obviously is closed-minded to any other opinions about the man or the way he runs things.
Trust me, I could have spent the past six months trying to get back at him, but he's not worth my time. I SAID, and you've chosen to IGNORE my well-wishes for AV in general. I hope they succeed. I don't have a lot of confidence in it because of Haiko's involvement, but I do hope that the organization can work past that.
Other people here have expressed concern or doubt about the situation, yet you attack me because I actually put a name to the concerns: Haiko. Are you defending the organization or Haiko? If you're defending the organization, you have no need - I'm not critical of the organization yet because it just launched. If you're defending Haiko, well, that just speaks volumes about where you're coming from. That's your issue, not mine.
I speak the truth. You have yet to deny that - but don't bother, because I'm not going to derail Scott's comments any further trying to convince a Kool-Aid drinker of it.
Back to your regularly scheduled program.
"Who’s focusing on Haiko?"
"I don’t have a lot of confidence in it because of Haiko’s involvement,"
Um, you are? Do you know what an organization is? It's many people involved, he is just one. One who has a history of wanting what's good for this industry. But you want to overlook that and get back at him because he banned you. Are you going to be petty and do that with anything he's involved with? You speak the truth? Here's some for you:
Affiliate Marketing Advocate Award Haiko de Poel, Jr. Scott Jangro Revenue Magazine
http://blog.affiliatetip.com/archives/affiliate-summit-pinnacle-award-finalists/
And Jangro and Lisa posted in this thread as well. And with that and the other people involved in AV, it's a pretty impressive list. But using your logic, judging something on one person, should I judge the PMA the same way, an organization your support? Ebates is involved in a working group. Daniel, do you think they've been good for this industry? Should I overlook the other great people involved in the PMA?
More people that are working to enlighten people on affiliate marketing, the better.
I actually think people should support both organizations. I think they will end up playing different roles in the long run and both add value. If two sets of people want to add value, then give them both a shot at making a difference. My guess is I'll take Scott's approach and support both
What I do hope is both organizations use some type of shared resources for industry wide efforts. I don't think we need two sets of fact sheets, two different lobbying efforts, two strategies, etc. And we should use the combined skills of the community for community projects. We already have a split on some of these issues. For instance, I was sadden to see some of the hard working and wonderful activists in California not even make a combined list of people working on the anti-tax issue. That is just not constructive for the industry In the legislative arena both groups should work in concert.
But you know, the thing about organizations is they really do reflect the nature of people who join them. I tend to think both these groups belong to the community and part of our job is to make sure they are both constructive.
I just wanted to weigh in here. As someone who has been deeply involved in Affiliate Marketing for 11 years now, I'm delighted that there is finally traction on an orgnaization. I am putting my energy into supporting the PMA for many reasons and feel that the concerted effort being made now to fight the tax issues has been simply phenomenal. From lobbying in Sacramento, to multiple efforts and support from various top influencers in the business like Chris Henger at the GoogleAffiliateNetwork, Peter Bordes of MediaTrust, Beth Kirsch, Brook Schaaf of Schaaf Consulting and of course, Brad Waller one of the earliest proponents of affiliate marketing in the business, as well as MANY other professionals, have done a TON of work on not only pulling together the organization, but also spearheading the fight on this tax issue. Special kudos for Rebecca Madigan and her tireless work for over a year now in getting this organization established. There has been countless efforts at reaching out to include every single group in this highly diverse industry, and while perfect agreement may never be possible, cooperation has been the main foundation of the founding members.
As a member of the Membership sub-committee, I can tell you that the membership fees will eventually be revised, but at this point, the early members are helping to create a financial foundation that jumpstarts the efforts and provides a solid base of strong members.
Founding a successful and powerful industry organization takes an enormous effort, and a lot of money and dedicated members. I wish AV well, but to answer Scott's question, I don't think another organization is what is needed, but for all of us to add as much weight to the PMA as possible, in order to create a united force against regulations that may strangle us all!
Thank you Scott for mentioning the launch of Affiliate Voice. As the President of this organization I am looking forward to working with everyone to better the industry. I started this organization to continue advocacy work and to help the industry move forward. I have been in email contact with Rebecca and others and we all agree that we need to work together. In fact, early last month we did work together on pending Internet tax legislation.
I agree there is a lot of good work to be done. I think it is a benefit to have more than one organization working on issues, this is the case in most other industries.
I am extremely focused and dedicated to the affiliate marketing industry. As the President of Affiliate Voice LLC I have made it clear to my Board that negativity is not productive.
I believe it is time for all of us to move forward and work together. It seems like most agree that we need to do so. Our organizations really do complement one another and I look forward to all the great things we will accomplish this year.
Thanks again.
Melanie, thank you for commenting here, I was hoping you would. There are few that I know who are as dedicated to affiliate marketing as you are.
I didn't feel that it was my place to disclose that you jumped in without reservation or hesitation and helped the PMA plan a response to the CA bills -- so I didn't -- but I saw that as a very positive thing. That in addition to your reinforcement here are a big part of why I give you and the Affiliate Voice my full support.
Thanks Scott and Lisa. I only mentioned my participation because I thought it was important for others to know. Not only do we (the PMA and Affiliate Voice) hope to be able to work together, but as we have shown, we can work together.
It seems like we are all committed to working proactively. The mutual respect and support we give each other will only make us stronger.
The well wishes and belief is appreciated. Here's to a great year ahead for our industry!
First off, bravo to Scott for bringing up this issue, and bravo for all that took time to post here on the topic.
I also think there's room for 2, and perhaps even more as time goes on.
My benchmark for this is the DMA (Direct Marketing Association). I think they did a horrible job as a group in responding to the NY issue (although I had several great conversations with their government group.)
Some organizations get too big to run effectively, and splintering is a good thing if a TRUE common goal (even if not ideology) is shared by both. To that end, we may need more groups to effectively handle other issues as they come forth. And they will.
My modest disclosure: I was initially nominated to work with the formation of the PMA (not to overstate it... I can't even recall the scope of the nomination, as I've REALLY tried to put 2008 behind me.)
I believed in that effort, and stated so publicly. And I still wish the best to them in their endeavors.
In reality, if you look at just the tax issue, there's a lot of work to be done. Lump that in with fighting off the bad actors, dealing with the increased powers of technology, and simply keeping up with what's going on in internet advertising in general, there's a lot of work to be done. And imagine, they might even have time to work at improving the industry beyond reactively fighting problems, which is what we tend to do now.
We need to do it transparently, and we need to do it without a lot of noise that runs counter to real growth.
So let's hope they both succeed. And lets hope they keep an eye on the brass ring. Be it side by side, or in purpose only.
For Melanie -
Hi Melanie - we haven't met yet, but I'd like to give your organization some press on my Affiliate Marketing Insider show on WebmasterRadio.fm. Please let me know if you're interested. Would like to interview you. Contact me at [email protected]
Thanks Linda Woods CEO/PartnerCentric
All the contact info you could ever hope for is on the AV website, Linda.
http://affiliatevoice.com/contactus.htm
Scott Thank you for this post opening this important topic, and for everyone's thoughts and insights in the comments.
This is a bipartisan subject just as the environment should have been during the election (there is no left or right when it come to the environment NO PLANET = NO LIFE). There cannot be nor is there time for a one camp or the other camp. There is only the here and now and the reality that our industry is under attack. Our community that we are all a part of is being threatened by an ill conceived tax that is counter productive.Creates more harm than good. Threatens to devastate one of the fastest growing industries in these tough economic times (and only one i know of right now).
A tax that will have a ripple effect that non of the State legislators really understand or have taken the time to grasp (and have no research data or association to go to to find it). The ripples effect affiliates (big and small) marketers, merchants, affiliate networks, ad networks, search engines,service providers, venture capitalists and share holders of public companies. This tax can WIPE OUT 100's of millions of revenue dollars, share holder value AND tax income for the states that the tax is supposed to increase not decrease.
Our industry ecosystem is incredibly intricate and complex for anyone on the outside to really understand. One of those reasons is that our industry has been a fragmented and black boxed segment of the online marketing industry. So there is very little research or understanding of the affiliate marketing industry and its total composition. Which on an aggregate basis is enormous (estimated at $10 billion)
There has not been an IAB or DMA to represent us or to turn to for information due to the above black box legacy. This is what has come to light during this significant threat. That we need to come together and become a united community so that we can have a focused voice and be understood. ALL of us by everyone!
This is a time for unity and to let the past stay in the past or we wont have as bright a future as we could. Performance marketing has the opportunity to become THE MOST significant part of the online marketing industry. IF we all unite and work together by putting egos aside and not thinking about ourselves , but about or community and what we can contribute to it in its time of need. There is no time for us vs. them. There is only the reality of the here and now. Time for swift, desisive and coordinated unified action. Nothing else matters.
SO to finally get to my answer to your post (sorry for the long winded soap box speech) YES ... there is room for 2 organizations that can and will work hand in hand.
Melanie a big congratulations on your formation and position. I applaud you and thank you for your passion for making this happen. Thank you for your help with the PMA CA tax fight. More partnering to come!
I am a member of the PMA and on a committee, and i hope we can meet to stratigize ASAP on how we can take this tax on and stop it dead in its tracks. There are other issues we all need to get around to fighting together such as fraud rings etc.
VIP clarification. The PMA is in its FOUNDING CHARTER MEMBERSHIP period. The fees are for FCM's 2yr membership. After the FCM period closes there will be a new standard membership program that we hope will be able to allow everyone to participate. You must understand that due to the complexity of our community that it is a very tough challenge to create all the different levels of possible membership.Please be patient before jumping to negative conclusions. Negatively breeds negativity and helps no one.
Now is the time for proactive collaboration to effect change not negative reactive and counter productive behavior.
thats it for now!
Thanks Melanie for Affiliate Voice and the others involved in getting this off the ground. I too think there is room for more than one organisation. I will be joining and will let others know as well. I looked at PMA and $500 was just way too much, I'm just a small affiliate and can't afford that, especially with this economy. Also after reading the One Cause Linkshare thread at A bestweb and things like Ebates and seeing both of them at the formation level at the PMA, that kept me away as well. But it's good there are options now. Also good to see working together on mutual issues and hopefully we can come together on things like this. Also, nice blog, bookmark.
Web Tax will never pass obama.
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I find it very important for affiliates, network AND merchants to work together on all sorts of issues. I recently blogged about Japan Affiliate Service Kyokai. In Japan, 7 corporate members in Affiliate Service Kyokai share information to identify affiliate partners with which Member Companies have discontinued agreements due to fraudulent activities.As a result, if you are kicked out as an affiliate from one network, you will most likely have to discontinue being an affiliate. I think it is very powerful to have one place where major networks, affiliates and merchants can participate to provide representation on behalf of affiliates. It is great to see PMA and Affiliate Voice's initiatives, but I'd love to see more involvements from networks and merchants as well to fight several issues including tax issues.
© 2012 http://www.jangro.com/
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In a matter of months, two affiliate marketing professional organization have launched. Earlier this year, the Performance Marketing Alliance was introduced, and today Affilaite Voice.
I truly believe, now more than ever, that the Affiliate Marketing industry needs more organization to get our good story out there (there are plenty of bad ones) and to put forth coordinated efforts that are required to get in front of things that threaten our industry like the recent "Amazon Tax".
I tend to be an optimist, and looking through those glasses I think this is a good thing. Knowing everybody on the initial AV board of directors, I know they have the best interest of the industry in mind, as do the founding members of the PMA.
To answer the question this post's title asks, I do think there is room for two organizations. I don't care if it is two or ten as long as they're working toward the benefit of Affiliate Marketing and don't spend a minute on us-vs-them BS especially at such a critical time when we cannot afford an ounce of divisiveness.
All interested should be working together in coordinated efforts to stop proliferation of the copycat tax legislation that is spreading through several states now.
Even in quieter times (perhaps especially so) the interests, motivations, and dedication to the industry will be tested. But for now, large, well-funded organizations are needed to put the muscle behind the lobbying efforts to stop the Amazon tax in other states. While small groups have been working feverishly on NY and CA, other states have fallen to more bad legislation. A few volunteers can only do so much.
For the record, I'm on the PMA's Formation Advisory Board (which will be replaced with an actual Board of Directors at some point), and I have joined as a member. I expect that I'll be joining Affiliate Voice as well in an effort to do everything I can for our industry (if they'll have me.)
Whether it be through the PMA or Affiliate Voice or both, please get involved in whatever way you can.